The following exclusive interview was done for OUTCOME magazine in early 1991 & was destined for the never published issue #12. Chuck was kind enough to take time out of his extremely busy schedule to do the phone interview. He also took the time to dig up specific information & phone it in some days later to complete the piece. OUTCOME folded at year's end. Chuck's beloved mate, friend & business KRIS partner Dom Orejudas (ETIENNE) died not long after (09-24-1991). Our thanks to OUTCOME for the exclusive right to publish this piece of our heritage on the web. The ARCHIVE has within it's vaults a number of original letters from Dom (signature & all) sent to the photo studio WILLARD. These include the logo art for Kris & their magazine MARS. All images on this page were scanned from original prints & are protected under copyright law. 1996 © Outcome/Man-Age Press all rights reserved. All images © Kris of Chicago all rights reserved. Images may not be published, reproduced or used in any manner or media in any way, shape or form without the written permission of Kris of Chicago!

OUTCOME: Why don't we start with how you got started in photography?

KRIS: It was a hobby in high school. That's how I got started in general. I enjoyed it. I had a camera. I was a member of Lane Tech, that was the high school I went to, the camera club. I just found it very, very interesting. I took a course in it junior college here

OUTCOME: At that time, had you give thought to it as a career?

KRIS: I started doing it as a career as a portrait photographer and I did not like it. You got old women & so forth who said make me look beautiful. I'm not a cosmetic surgeon. I'm a photographer.

OUTCOME: How did you go from that into Physique photography?

KRIS: I had a very good friend of mine named Harry Nicholson and he was int the Physique photography. He approached me about starting a photography studio.

OUTCOME: What year was this?

KRIS: About 1953. I told him I'd be interested. I was not particularly fond of it and I started a studio with him. Basically he started it and I was his photographer. Then I met Dom Orejudas, the artist Etienne, and he became my lover. Together, since he of course had much more artistic ability then I did, we started selling his work and he started working with me. By this time Harry Nicholson received a job with an export/import company making it a little risky to be in this, so I bought him out. So Dom & I became KRIS Studio and we ran the studio from there. Dom had a better eye for models, form, posing & so forth. I had an eye for lighting. In other words I was more of a technician. The combination of the two of us became extremely successful.

OUTCOME: That's interesting as it's usually the photographer who starts up then hooks up with an artist.

KRIS: He was also a ballet dancer. He could line up models when they were posingg. He taught me how to pose models. He had an understanding of form & line and so forth. That's real important. That's why some of the early Kris work are so very graceful.

OUTCOME: Kris operated from when to when?

KRIS: 1953 to 1976. We gave the studio away to a friend of mine in New York, which became Target.

OUTCOME: Lou Thomas.

KRIS: Yeah, Lou Thomas was a buddy of mine for years & years. When we decided to get out of business we gave our mailing list to Lou. The photography of Target was his not ours.

OUTCOME: It's interesting that you closed down as Target came into being. You also worked with an artist named STEPHEN.

Kris: That was Dom too. Dom's full name is Dom Stephen Orejudas. Etienne is the French translation of the name Stephen. All of the Stephen work was line art, all pen & ink. When he did the Etienne work it was all oils or temperas or water colors.

OUTCOME: He's now doing art work for the Foot Frat (a contributor to OUTCOME.) When did you start putting out magazines? I assume you began by selling photo sets.

KRIS: Yes, the first thing we did was sell photo sets. From the beginning we submitted photos to magazines and had them printed, heavy. Let me walk up stairs as we talk & get MARS magazine which we published so I can give you exact dates. TRIUMPH was a short lived one after MARS. Most of my work was done in the days when there was no full frontal nudes. It was all posing strap stuff. We did go into the full frontal nudes. I was not interested when we started getting into hardcore. I said I'm not a whore master. I'm a photographer.

OUTCOME: A lot of Physique photographers got turned off as the trend got more and more explicit.

KRIS: Yeah, me too. I just didn't want to do it that's all. Okay, MARS was published from May 1963, volume 1 #1, until November 1968. They stopped putting dates on magazines at some point as they had a longer shelf life. MARS was bi-monthly.

OUTCOME: What followed MARS?

KRIS: TRIUMPH for about 3-4 issues, that was full frontal nudes. We were interested in full frontal nudes but once again I found it very hard to get the caliber of models I had earlier to pose nude.

OUTCOME: Well, if you follow the history of erotic photography from the 50s to today you can see the steady decline in quality. As the work became less underground and got more & more graphic less guys wanted to pose.

Kris: That was one of the reasons I got out. I did take nudes of all of my models, whenever I could from the very beginning. I promised some models I wouldn't use them for 15 years.

OUTCOME: You're unusual as some photographers, like Bob Mizer, wouldn't even take full frontals in the beginning.

KRIS: As a matter of fact last week I started printing those pictures, as 20 years has now long gone. I'm doing some salon prints which I'm going to auction off to raise money for one of the clinics.

OUTCOME: Well, finally after all the years Physique photographers were harassed by the Postal authorities & extremely violent physical attacks by the police. For pictures of models in posing straps! Finally the work is being acknowledged as art. It took garbage created by a sleazy shit eating hustler named Mapplethorpe and the fascist republicans to finally wake the public up.

KRIS: Originally, in '64 the Post Office had us called into court saying our work was obscene. We won here & in state court. The state of Illinois also was against us but we won in court. We used a unique defense. Up till this time everybody was saying it was art. It was easy for the government to call up witnesses to say it wasn't. We didn't do that. We came into court and said this is not pornography.

OUTCOME: This was posing straps not full frontal nudes?

KRIS: This was posing straps. We said this is not pornography. We didn't claim it was art, we said it was not pornography. I remember to this day the judge leaning over and asking my attorney "then what is it?" My attorney said it's not for us to determine what it is. All we're saying is what it's not. The judge said you have a very good point. He turned to the prosecutor and asked "are you saying this is pornography, because it looks to be just a picture of the human body. Are you saying the human body is pornographic?" That's as far as it went. He dismissed the case.

OUTCOME: Did RAWHIDE MALE follow TRIUMPH?

Kris: Oh wait I'm getting mixed up. RAWHIDE MALE followed MARS. TRIUMPH was entirely different. TRIUMPH was when I owned a gym and TRIUMPH was the official publication. It was a body building magazine. I was getting confused on dates & times. Yeah, TRIUMPH was the house publication for the gymnasium we owned. We owned Triumph Gymnasium & Health Studio downtown, which I originally bought to get models. I was a weight lifter myself & so was Etienne. In fact I won a medal for it. I was the AAU chairman in charge of body building. In other words I was in charge of Mr. Illinois, Mr. Chicago, etc. I was privy to an awfel lot of models and that's how I got my models.

OUTCOME: Similar to Weider out here.

KRIS: Weider was just starting. At that time Weider's IFPB was entirely unknown. It was AAU, Amateur Athletic Guild, which was dominated by Bob Hoffman (New York Barbell, Co.) Who was anti-Gay - extremely. Which is why it never headed in that direction until Weider took it over.

OUTCOME: You got into film work too.

KRIS: We also put out movies. I can't tell you the year. I'm sure it was in the 60s somewhere. The Cannes Film Festival made honorable mention of our movie "Blue Rose."

OUTCOME: How did the addition of movies come about?

KRIS: There was a demand for it, supply & demand. Customers wanted movies of our models. I'm a photographer so I did it. I took another course at a local college here. Once again Dom would write the scripts, be the director & I would be the photographer.

OUTCOME: As I recall from the ads for the films, you had plot lines.

KRIS: We still have them on video. As a matter of fact I'm thinking of releasing them. The problem is they've faded some. Of course on video they won't fade anymore."The Blue Rose" for example, the integral part of the story is the color. I'm thinking of advertising somewhere to find a good copy of "The Blue Rose". Somebody somewhere mus have a good copy.

OUTCOME: Well if any of your fans who are reading this have a copy they'd be willing to lend you to transfer to video they can e-mail you c/o The ARCHIVE (archive@badpuppy.com) & we'll forward it to you. I'm sure they'd like to help you make your work available again to a generation who never experienced them. I'd like to see the CHAMPION films put on tape but the originals are long gone and exist only in collector's hands.

KRIS: Most of the negatives are ruined. We had over a thousand models that we photographed. I don't have most of it. Finding collectors would be nice but it's still horrible that my negatives were lost. Most of them were lost in a flood. I still have a lot but not all of them.

OUTCOME: There definitely is a market for the films. It's no longer just restricted to hardcore material. There's a market for erotic but not graphic material.

KRIS: The salon prints I auctioned off went for $200.00 each. They were 11x14s I had done up on quality paper.

OUTCOME: The person who bought up the BRUCE of L.A. work exhibited it in an art gallery & put out a book on the work. It's unfortunate that Bruce didn't live to receive the praise but his work is finally getting the treatment and respect it deserves. Why don't we discuss your models. You had the distinction of working with PAUL FERGUSON who, with his brother, murdered silent film Star RAMON NAVARRO with a lead dildo given Navarro by Valentino.

KRIS: My main source of models was as an AAU chairman therefore that's how I got my bodybuilders. Then I had contacts with different people who were into hustlers. I said if you find someone with a good body bring them over. I'll pay you for finding them and if they're good we'll photograph them. That's how we got Paul Ferguson. I don't know who it was anymore who brought him over. He had a good body and we photographed him.

OUTCOME: Was he alone or was his brother with him.

KRIS: No there was no partner with him. I don't think he was alone but I don't know who he was with. I think he was staying with several people but I don't really remember. He was here for awhile. It wasn't a one time thing. He was living in Chicago. We did a series of him, a who bunch of stuff which I still have.

OUTCOME: I had the shower negs of yours from the Grecian Guild files. They were cremated in the '86 fire. When in conjunction to the murder did you photograph him?

KRIS: I'd have to check my files but it was in the summer of 1964.l

OUTCOME: What can you tell us about JOHNNY MENENDEZ?

KRIS: He was a hustler. I think he's a Bi-sexual. Very nice guy, lived here in Chicago and became a very good friend. He's still around but don't look like that anymore. He's married and has four very nice children.

OUTCOME: It's great to hear he's still around & doing well. He worked with you exclusively.

KRIS: Yes, that was because I met him and a friendship developed. He was a hustler and as a matter of fact I went with him a few times. A friendship developed that even went beyond that. That's why he stayed with us. We did a couple movies with him. We did duos with him. He has one of the biggest dicks I've ever seen.

OUTCOME: You've always been in Illinois right?

KRIS: We did do some photographs out of Illinois, we traveled. But we were always stationed in Illinois. 80% of our models came from here.

OUTCOME: Off hand you're the only studio out of Illinois.

KRIS: No, there was another one named CLIFF OETTINGER, out of Chicago. As a matter of fact, he was the first person to work with & did the most work with GLENN BISHOP. Then after we started he just faded away. I never did find out what happened to him.

OUTCOME: Then Bishop's wife took over doing all his pictures.

KRIS: He had a male lover, a sugar daddy, who sent him through chiropractic school.

OUTCOME: He also had a swimsuit business. You worked with MONTE HANSEN. Did he come to Illinois or did you meet him on a trip?

KRIS: I'm pretty sure he came to Illinois. I'm not positive. Let me tell you something of our studio. We were mostly known for the muscular guys. Not everyone, Ferguson was not that muscular, but for the most part we had big men. We did most of the champion body builders at the time, Mr. Chicago & so forth. As I told you I was a portrait photographer. When I was a portrait photographer I got into an awful lot of theatricals, head shots for actors & stuff. These always wanted highly dramatic lighting which etched my skills for dramatic lighting. I carried this over to our photography. One of the things we were famous for was our black backgrounds & side lighting. The type of lighting that really showed the muscles up.

OUTCOME: You were also know for doing a lot of leather.

KRIS: Yeah, we owned THE GOLD COAST which was a leather bar for 35 years. Dom & I were very heavy into leather. I would say that of everyone, and there were exceptions, we had the most muscular All-American Boy-Next-Door types. We had Mr. Universe, Mr. World, a lot of big titles. A lot of people said at the time, and I would now have to agree, that I was way ahead of the time.

OUTCOME: You were definitely doing something unique for the period. In today's terminology you were on the cutting edge.

KRIS: That's why the stuff I'm printing up today is going so good. It's in demand today.

OUTCOME: Do you think back then that you were as appreciated as you are now? How did your work go over at that time compared with other studios of the period?

KRIS: I think that because of my volume I was probably the largest. I have good reason to believe that from what the magazines would tell me. I probably had a greater volume of sales than any other studio. Most studios simply banked a lot of their prestige on a couple of very, very good models - like Glenn Bishop. But I never really did that. I based mine on a new model consistently coming out. We published our brochures at that time approximately every 8 weeks. Every one had new models and at least one model in each was top quality, sometimes 2-3. I had quite a reservoir. Even when I left the business I had 8 or 9 guys waiting to be photographed. I never did them. We had well over 1000 models.

OUTCOME: Did you find models wanted you to use their real name or did they prefer a modeling name?

KRIS: I always used their real name unless they specifically asked me not to use it for some reason. Not very many did. I'd say 10%.

OUTCOME: Most of the models from the Physique period used their real names. It wasn't until the full frontals began that models mainly used a modeling name.

KRIS: Also, in those days we were a closed clan. I'd walk up to a guy at a contest & tell him what I wanted to do. He'd never heard of these magazines. He did ask "no one will ever see me in 'em?

OUTCOME: What was your procedure in working with a model?

KRIS: We usually brought a model in and we photographed him, just plain studio shots. We developed those & if we thought they were good Dom & I would decide maybe this guy would look good in leather or whatever kind of setting. Then we usually called him back in for what we called novelty shots. Like in a shower or whatever. Then we would use him in a dual.

OUTCOME: Any outstanding memories of CHEROKEE?

KRIS: Oh, Cherokee's character, he was great! He was a wonderful person, great sense of humor. Very open about sexuality. He traveled around the country posing. A good friend of mine took a whole porno movie with him.

If you have any info about any of Kris' models, can put us in touch with any or were one of Kris' models please e-mail us below:

The STARS

MARCUS DELGADO - RODGER SMEALL - JAMES SEELY - NED JAROS - JOHNNY KERR - BOB JACKSON - DANNY LEE - SERGE OLIVIO - FRED OTERO - PAUL CULLY - EVERT "CHEROKEE" JACKSON - LUIS "SPEEDY" GONZALES - AL WOJCIK - DAVE ALLEN - JOHN BORDIS - BILL KENT - BILL SENO - WALT IGNELL - PAUL NIVEN - MIKE BRADBURN - TONY SANTIAGO - DUSTY ALLENSON - JIM FANNING - DOUG PARRIS - JOHN TRISTRAM - STEVE KOTIS - MONTY HANSON - PHIL FOSTER - "ROCKY" WEBB - STEVE RENO - JACK RANDOLPH - GEORGE ERICKSON - JIMMY COX - JIM AUGUST - BURLY MATT - ED McDERMOTT - RON BRUHN - TONY KIRCH - RON ALLER - BOB KOLINSKY - DON CARR - JOHNNY SEATON - JOHNNY MENENDEZ - GLENN REICH - TONY POULOS - KIRBY COOPER - RICHARD MAZURE - MARTY SHIMKUS - ROBERT REX - JOHNNY SAVAGE - GEORGE O'MARA - ED FURY - DENNIS GAULKE - AL THORPE - JERRY REED - LARRY ROZNOS - RON DeWOSKIN - TED BORT - BOB STORR - KEN BRANDENBURG - SIG ULMANIS - DAVE SELHIME - BRUNO CECCINI - WALT IGNELL - BOB NICHOLSON - GENE COOK - RICHARD ARCIERI - DOMINIC THOSONE - MATT GORDON - BILL JACOBS - JIM DILLOW - MILES WILSON - JESSE HALE - JERRY ROQUEMORE - JIM MOORE - DICK AVERY - RICHARD LEE ALLEN - RICHARD ARCIERI - JOHN SEQUEIRA - KURT INMAN - STEVE WENGRYN - LARRY SELHIME - RON O'BRIEN - LLOYD ARNELL - JOE BAYSE - AXEL SWORD - DAN BUDZIAK - JOE LEITEL - JOHN PEREA - WALT NEEDHAM - MIKE BARCO - JOE ELIASON - BOB RAFFAEL - KEN THORPE - MIKE LAVELLE - FRANK BAESPFLUG - DICK HARRISON - JIMMY DUNN - CHUCK YOUNG - CHUCK STACK - LEE CRITES - MARK NIXON - JOHN BURKE - JOHN WANDERS - RALPH KLEINER - KEN COLBY - CAROL VARNER - JOEL BROWER - GAYLE WAKEFIELD - JOCK VALJEAN - JOE VOLLTRAUER - HOWARD COHEN - VINCE ORLANDINI - TODD HARRIS - BOB SCHROEDER - NICK MARTSCHENKO - RICK HANSON - BRAD MOORE - BOB LOCKLAND - FRANK RENAULT - RICHARD FRANKS - WARREN FULLER - CHUCK MITCHELL - DON DAVIS - DICK BILL - JAY NORMAN - GERRY HOULIHAN - TED FRANKIAK - DUANE - MATTHEWS - IRA HICKS - AL CUNNINGHAM . . .